Chinese radar uncloaks U.S. stealth jets.
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Chinese radar uncloaks U.S. stealth jets.  
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1.  Kelvin Mok  
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 Mais opções 1 dez 1999, 06:00
Grupos de notícias: sci.military.naval
De: kl...@home.com (Kelvin Mok)
Data: 1999/12/01
Assunto: Re: Chinese radar uncloaks U.S. stealth jets.
On Tue, 30 Nov 1999 17:39:52 +0000, Alastair Beadle

<alastair.bea...@gecm.com> wrote:

>> The attractiveness of co-opting civillian RF signals...
>Agreed - if they can get it to work in a produceable system. There are a
>lot of technical difficulties to overcome.

>The fighter still has to detect the aircraft itself - otherwise it has
>to close to visual range to engage. If the passive system cannot give
>sufficient resolution to guide weapons it has a significant limitation.
>Do you really want to close to visual range with an F-22? - remembering
>that it may well detect you and hit you with AMRAAMs well before that.

There is a significant difference between radar technology which sends
a directional signal and looks for its return and this "new" detection
technology.

This "new" technology uses the 3 dimensional electro-magnetic mesh
created by fixed commercial transmitters and their signals are
transmitted in the kilowatt and megawatt range - very, very  strong
signals at very stable frequencies so there is no mistaking what or
where they are at any time.  The 3-D mesh created by the signals is
therefore very stable.   No technical difficulties there.  Short of
wiping out every civillian RF source, friend or foe, that mesh exists.

When an intruder aircraft flies through this mesh it distorts the
transmisssion paths and the distortion can be detected.  Commercial
aircraft fly only inside authorised corridors.  You better know where
your own military aircraft are.  EM distortion detected elsewhere,
filtered out for any birdlike objects flying under 200 knots, is the
enemy.

I compared distortion detectors to cellphones because cellphone signal
processing capability is remarkable considering that the cellphone/
communications satellite signal link is a teeny fraction of a
microwatt .  It is conceivable that the distortion detectors should be
of similar dimensions and capabilities whether they are processing
ground based or satellite based transmitters.

The "new" technology promises to be both cheap, ubiquitous and
retaliation proof.  This should even up the odds somewhat.

Stealth aircraft are glamourous.  But to be able to detect the more
numerous and heavier bombed up conventional aircraft is more
important.

Now how you use that information is another argument but at least the
defence is no longer blind as the Iraqis were during the Gulf War.
And this blindness was what was giving a lot of defence planners
nightmares.

---
Kelvin Mok
kl...@home.com

KelvinMok
klmok@.shaw.wave.ca


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2.  Mark Borgerson  
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 Mais opções 1 dez 1999, 06:00
Grupos de notícias: sci.military.naval
De: Mark Borgerson <m...@oes.to>
Data: 1999/12/01
Assunto: Re: Chinese radar uncloaks U.S. stealth jets.

Alastair Beadle wrote:

> Kelvin Mok wrote:
<SNIP>>>
> The technical objections from me are its reliance on VERY week signals
> (the echoes from non-directional, civil transmitters) and very
> sophisticated signal processing (distinguishing and correlating those
> same weak echoes from constant ground echoes and the original, higher
> powered, signals).

<<SNIP>>

Although I agree with most of the points in the post, I'd like to
point out that many civilian transmitters use dipole antennas and
are not truly omnidirectional.  Thus, you gain some additional
information by evaluating the changes in return strength as
the target moves.  If the transmitter is in the HF band, you can
also get some information using skips vs. ground wave returns.

Mark Borgerson


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3.  Clunk  
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 Mais opções 1 dez 1999, 06:00
Grupos de notícias: sci.military.naval
De: Clunk <bernhard...@bigpond.com>
Data: 1999/12/01
Assunto: Re: Chinese radar uncloaks U.S. stealth jets.
You are correct:  impulse radar contains a multitude of frequencies which will
find resonances in the airframe and hopefully reflect of low observabillity
coatings
at some frequency bands.

Inpulse radar is also extraordinarily accurate.  No chance of defeating it with
chaff.

Multistatic impulse radar can overcome stealth but it is expensive and less
effective.
Tests after WWII by the RAF on german radar showed the german anti jamming
techniques worked but because they didn't have microwave radar till late so their
short wave systems were cumbersom and expensive.  So expensive they were never
really effective.

Bernhard


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4.  Paul J. Adam  
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 Mais opções 1 dez 1999, 06:00
Grupos de notícias: sci.military.naval
De: "Paul J. Adam" <P...@jrwlynch.demon.co.uk>
Data: 1999/12/01
Assunto: Re: Chinese radar uncloaks U.S. stealth jets.
In article <38440BE8.A9D27...@gecm.com>, Alastair Beadle
<alastair.bea...@gecm.com> writes

>The fighter still has to detect the aircraft itself - otherwise it has
>to close to visual range to engage. If the passive system cannot give
>sufficient resolution to guide weapons it has a significant limitation.
>Do you really want to close to visual range with an F-22? - remembering
>that it may well detect you and hit you with AMRAAMs well before that.

Get a ballpark figure from the ground and use IRST to localise. You
burn fuel and shove airframe through atmosphere, you get warm.
Best of all, this is all passive. Still some apparent downsides, of
course...

>I am sure we will see such systems become operational. But I disagree
>that they signal an end to stealth or conventional radar.

Just one more move in the game, is all. If nobody came up with a
"Stealth countermeasure" then low-observable can't have been much
good :)

--
There are four kinds of homicide: felonious, excusable, justifiable and
praiseworthy...            

Paul J. Adam                                  p...@jrwlynch.demon.co.uk  


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Anyone know anything about the VGAS 155 mm?  
1.  althousm  
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 Mais opções 1 dez 1999, 06:00
Grupos de notícias: sci.military.naval
De: altho...@vrinet.com
Data: 1999/12/01
Assunto: Re: Anyone know anything about the VGAS 155 mm?
In article <P%U04.164$IA3.14...@typhoon-sf.snfc21.pbi.net>,
  "Koji Goto" <kg...@clickent.com> wrote:

> Does anyone know anything about what this system looks like (that is
if
> there are any mock-ups of it)?  I found a reference to it on a website
> (http://www.fas.org/man/dod-101/sys/ship/weaps/vgas.htm) which gave a
brief
> description of the capabilities, but no graphical description.

It's basically gone away.  The Navy did a study that determined that a
trainable gun could be somewhat "stealthy" (for lack of a better word),
so VGAS went away and AGS (Advanced Gun System) was born.  It'll
probably look a lot like the current 5"/62 gun, only with a 155-mm
barrel.  Rather than develop a totally new (and financially risky) gun,
they decided to stick with the "baby steps" approach.

--
*********************************************************************
*  Mike Althouse                               altho...@vrinet.com  *
*                                                                   *
*  "If I could be reincarnated as a fabric, I would like to come    *
*  back as a 38DD bra." -- Minnesota Gov. Jesse Ventura             *
*********************************************************************

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Before you buy.


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Question on passive protection:  
1.  Pat & Donna Molvik  
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 Mais opções 1 dez 1999, 06:00
Grupos de notícias: sci.military.naval
De: Pat & Donna Molvik <mol...@gntech.net>
Data: 1999/12/01
Assunto: Re: Question on passive protection:
wherever the yahoo on the other end of the sound powered phones told us....  my
point is simply that we are able to take local control of almost any system..

Pat


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Puerto Rico Awaits Clinton Decision  
1.  The Amer War Lib'y  
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 Mais opções 1 dez 1999, 06:00
Grupos de notícias: sci.military.naval
De: militaryconce...@pacbell.net (The Amer War Lib'y)
Data: 1999/12/01
Assunto: Puerto Rico Awaits Clinton Decision
30 Nov 1999
Puerto Rico Awaits Clinton Decision

EXCERPT: " VIEQUES, Puerto Rico (AP) -- Politicians and religious
figures on Tuesday joined scores of protesters illegally camped at a
U.S. Navy base in Puerto Rico, as islanders nervously awaited a U.S.
decision on whether bombing exercises at the site would resume.

Activists in this U.S. territory of 4 million people fear President
Clinton may order new exercises at the range in the coming days and
are preparing for a possible clash with federal authorities.

``If we are arrested, there w..."

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Clinton Steps Between Navy, Puerto Rico, by Roberto Suro and David A.  
1.  The Amer War Lib'y  
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 Mais opções 1 dez 1999, 06:00
Grupos de notícias: sci.military.naval
De: militaryconce...@pacbell.net (The Amer War Lib'y)
Data: 1999/12/01
Assunto: Clinton Steps Between Navy, Puerto Rico, by Roberto Suro and David A.
01 Dec 1999
Clinton Steps Between Navy, Puerto Rico, by Roberto Suro and David A.
Vise Washington Post Staff Writers

EXCERPT: "Even as the first ships of a carrier battle group steamed
toward controversial training exercises, President Clinton yesterday
hammered out the broad terms of an agreement to allow the Navy to
resume use of its Puerto Rican firing range on a temporary and limited
basis, senior officials said.

Although talks are still underway and the consensus is fragile,
Clinton and Attorney General Janet Reno also discussed the possibility
of sending FBI agents to remove protesters who are occupying the
firing range on the small island of Vieques..."

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USN Petty Officer arrested for espionage with Russians.  
1.  Greg Surratt  
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 Mais opções 1 dez 1999, 06:00
Grupos de notícias: sci.military.naval
De: Greg Surratt <glsurr...@usa.net>
Data: 1999/12/01
Assunto: Re: USN Petty Officer arrested for espionage with Russians.
Last numbers I heard (and these are a few years old), overall Navy
averages were something like 14 for Chief, 19 for Senior and ?? for
Master.  

Everything I've seen so far just says "First Class Petty Officer" -
anybody know if he was a CT or RM (IT) or ??

Greg


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2.  Ken Cook  
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 Mais opções 1 dez 1999, 06:00
Grupos de notícias: sci.military.naval
De: Ken Cook <kc...@lynae.sgi.com>
Data: 1999/12/01
Assunto: Re: USN Petty Officer arrested for espionage with Russians.

When I made CPO back in 1976, that was right on the 12 year mark for me.
As it was, that was a little bit on the early side for Gunner's Mates
(Guns) at the time. I can thank my service in Vietnam and my two Purple
Hearts for the extra points needed to put me into the group who got to
"put on the hat" that year.
--
Ken Cook
GMGC, USN (Ret)

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