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Grupos de notícias: sci.military.naval
De: a...@aber.ac.uk (ANDREW BREEN)
Data: 1998/11/29
Assunto: Re: To Armor or not to Armor (was: 6 inch gun cruiser...)
In article <366035E7.9EBEA...@ibm.net>, Eric Pinnell <epin...@ibm.net> wrote:
>Per Andersson wrote:> >> Per Andersson > Actual frontal armor on a M1A2 Abrams main battle tank is 600 millimeters, >Eric Pinnell the thick stuff over a very small patch of ship (around the turret bases) and relied on elaborate compartmentalisation (for her time) elsewhere. It's certainly interesting that the only nation to build second-generation citadel ships (the Italians) abandoned the side armour altogether, with "Italia" and "Lepanto" depending totally on subdivision for protection against damage. -- É necessário Acessar antes de postar mensagens.
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Grupos de notícias: sci.military.naval
De: "Thomas Schoene" <TomScho...@worldnet.att.net>
Data: 1998/12/01
Assunto: Re: The hybrid carrier fallacy
Charles Gray <n...@null.net> wrote in article
<36623df4.18453...@news.jps.net>... > Heres a question-- is there ever a good reason to compromise a I assume you're thinking of the through-deck concepts by Reuven > carriers aircraft capacity by loading it down with other weapons? > In this, I'm largely looking at the midrange CGSN designs > famous in the 1970's Leopold. I'd argue that such an air-capable strike cruiser was a potentially viable concept in its era, but only if a) you regarded it not as an aircraft carrier with missiles, but as a b) you needed a sea-control, surface warfare type platform Thus, the CSGN is very similar in role to the reactivated BBs, and and the current Russian carrier with its SS > missile farm on the flight deck. [snip] Absolutely correct. It only makes any sense if you regard the air > Now, since a carrier's main job is to carry aircraft, it seems > like the Russian move is a self defeating one, since those missiles > take up space that could be used for a hanger, and unlike an aircraft, > can't be changed out or replaced just by flying a new one out to the > ship. wing as a purely defensive asset. Given that the Russians didn't go for real multi-role swing aircraft until quite recently, they may have felt it was impossible to include both fighters and strike aircraft in a small air wing. However, they would have still been better off expanding the air wing and relying on other ships for offensive firepower. > On the other hand, a smaller carrier, especially one more like In general, the later seems to be true. A few Western-style SSMs > a WWII cruiser in its duties then the Currant CVN's might need some > form of added weaponry, beyond point defense. However, is such a > ship doable, or just another incarnation of a "fleet in one ship" > fallacy that occasionally rears it's ugly head? could be added at relatively low ship impact, but if a carrier is that close to its foes, it's made a mistake of the first order. (The Italian Garibaldi design seems like a fair exception, since the Med is very constricted and you simply might have no option but to get close to your enemy) On the other hand, adding area air defense imposes a fairly significant ship impact. Consider the Invincibles. Not only did the SAM magazine and mechanism eat up hull volume, fitting the launcher on centerline restricted the deck layout, shortening the takeoff roll and eliminating at least one helo spot. > For another question-- should ships be designed in the future Assuming that UCAVs are reusable and require conventional ordnance, > with UCAV's. (for instance a DDG with specialized UCAV handling gear, > where the UCAV's also function as part of its "main battery"), or > should we simply stick with VTOL helicopter platform based UAV's for > cruiser and destroyers, and keep the more specialized ones on > carriers, accepting the reduced number of manned aircraft? they more or less have to go on dedicated aviation ships with sufficient magazine and fuel capacity to keep them armed and flying for several days at a time. A destroyer-sized ship won't have enough ordnance for more than a few strikes without giving up a substantial portion of its other capabilities or becoming much larger than a conventional ship without UCAV capabilities. There might be a useful role for UCAV control capabilities on -- É necessário Acessar antes de postar mensagens.
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Grupos de notícias: sci.military.naval
De: David Bofinger <David.Bofin...@dsto.defence.gov.au>
Data: 1998/12/01
Assunto: Re: The hybrid carrier fallacy
One reason people might go for hybrid carriers is because they just
don't need a large number of aircraft badly enough to justify filling up an entire large ship with aircraft. They might not be able to have a smaller carrier (stability? deck space? runway length?) but they can have a large ship which can also do something else. Not saying it works in practice, but I don't think the idea can be ---------------------------------------------------------------------- É necessário Acessar antes de postar mensagens.
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Grupos de notícias: sci.military.naval
De: "Thomas Schoene" <TomScho...@worldnet.att.net>
Data: 1998/12/01
Assunto: Re: The hybrid carrier fallacy
Diego Mantilla <manti...@erols.com> wrote in article
<73vn8q$eq...@winter.news.rcn.net>... > Paul J. Adam wrote in message > >Even there... the Invincibles will be losing their Sea Dart > I thought the Sea Dart battery was replaced by a Phalanx CIWS. Falklands War (Originally one ship had Phalanx, but they all have Goalkeeper now) . The removal of Sea Dart is specifically to increase deck space and create magazine space for air-to-ground ordnance for RAF Harriers. -- É necessário Acessar antes de postar mensagens.
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Grupos de notícias: sci.military.naval
De: actop...@gwi.net (Andrew C. Toppan)
Data: 1998/12/01
Assunto: Re: The hybrid carrier fallacy
Franz (franz@NIH!card-net.org) was seen to write:
> I disagree. To gain experience in carrier operations, nothing beats I'm not sure if you're talking about the French or the Russians here, > practical experience. They started off in conservative ways. They had no > experience in operating aircraft from a vessel. They started small and > pursued more ambitious projects as experience developed. since previous posts have referred to both. In either case, you're incorrect. 1) The French have been operating aircraft carriers since 1927, and 2) The Soviets/Russians did not "start off in conservative ways" or "start -- É necessário Acessar antes de postar mensagens.
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Grupos de notícias: sci.military.naval
De: rwwe...@aol.com (RWWells)
Data: 1998/12/01
Assunto: Re: The hybrid carrier fallacy
> During WW II the Japanese converted two older BBs into sea-plane I thought the idea was an extension of the successful Tone class cruisers, to >carrier/battleships (made a complete hash out of it I admit) . The >concept was NOT to put more *offensive* aircraft into the air but was >an attempt to significantly improve the air *defence* capability of >these ships, allowing them to close with the enemy and "do what >battleships do" with gunfire. supply the IJN with additional scouting assets. Had all 5 seaplane warships (Tone, Chikuma, Mogami, Ise and Hyuga) operated with the carrier force, the combined scout plane force was larger than a single carrier's complete strike force. (Actually, since Kates were the primary carrier based scout, it would take 3 carriers to generate an equivalent scouting force.) Of course, by the time the conversions were completed, the Japanese no longer had enough planes to equip the conversions. In practice, these and the various other hybrid carrier designs faced the major Were the Soviet designs of cruisers with improved local air support a useful Richard Wells É necessário Acessar antes de postar mensagens.
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Grupos de notícias: sci.military.naval
De: Ken & Laura Chaddock <chadd...@istar.ca>
Data: 1998/12/01
Assunto: Re: The hybrid carrier fallacy
It was my impression that, while they may have carried more scouting
assets, they were primarily intended to carry A6M2-N and N1K floatplane fighters (18 out of 22 a/c). The fact that they never shipped a significant airgroup also certainly corresponds to availability (or lack there of) since there were over 1400 E13A and E13B float recon birds built but only some 327 A6M2-N and 97 N1K fighters built. > In practice, these and the various other hybrid carrier designs faced the major Depends upon how they are built and armoured. It wasn't impossible to > problem of the vulnerbility of the aviation fuel and thinly protected flight > areas to hostile gunfire. The various cruiser actions off Guadal Canal were > replete with fires in the seaplane handling areas; more planes would just make > the problem worse. Since planes will get bigger and heavier, the restricted > size of the smaller operational flight deck will merely serve to reduce the > hybrid's operational life span. put relatively heavy armour on a flight deck, the British showed the way here and if the protective scheme were properly managed fuel tankage would be no more vunerable than magazine spaces. The fact that relatively lightly armoured crusiers whose aircraft storage and handling arrangements were, at best, after thoughts, cannot be compared to a properly configured "carrier". The useful life is certainly an issue, as the British found out with armoured, inclosed hanger carriers after the war. ...Ken É necessário Acessar antes de postar mensagens.
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Grupos de notícias: sci.military.naval
De: "Paul J. Adam" <P...@jrwlynch.demon.co.uk>
Data: 1998/12/01
Assunto: Re: The hybrid carrier fallacy
In article <73vn8q$eq...@winter.news.rcn.net>, Diego Mantilla
<manti...@erols.com> writes >Paul J. Adam wrote in message <3ag5AqAr$yY2E...@jrwlynch.demon.co.uk>... Nope. I was aboard Invincible not too long ago, and she still had her >>Even there... the Invincibles will be losing their Sea Dart capability >>in order to free up space for land-attack weaponry and another aircraft >>in the deck park. >I thought the Sea Dart battery was replaced by a Phalanx CIWS. Sea Dart, plus three Goalkeeper CIWS. Ark's just lost her SAMs during her refit, IIRC. -- Paul J. Adam p...@jrwlynch.demon.co.uk É necessário Acessar antes de postar mensagens.
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Grupos de notícias: sci.military.naval
De: actop...@gwi.net (Andrew C. Toppan)
Data: 1998/12/01
Assunto: Re: The hybrid carrier fallacy
Diego Mantilla (manti...@erols.com) was seen to write:
> I thought the Sea Dart battery was replaced by a Phalanx CIWS. Uhh, no, the INVINCIBLEs currently have BOTH Sea Dart and CIWS (Phalanx or Goalkeeper). That's how it's been for years. Soon the Sea Dart will be removed to expand the deck, just as the previous person said. -- É necessário Acessar antes de postar mensagens.
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Grupos de notícias: sci.military.naval
De: unic...@NOJUNKbridgenet.com.au (unicorn)
Data: 1998/12/02
Assunto: Re: The hybrid carrier fallacy
In article <36633e7...@news1.ibm.net>, rmri...@ibm.net says...
>Franz wrote in message ... >If only "sub-standard" aircraft are available, then they shouldn't have aircraft in its time. The Soviets were starting from scratch and made up a lot of ground in a fairly short space of time. The Forgers were a limited piece of kit but were lineal ancestors to todays maritime Flankers, which are a sensational piece of kit, up there with Rafale and the F/A-18A. You have to crawl before you can sprint. That makes it look like they built >carriers just to say that they have carriers (France and the CDG come to It was always the French desire to have multiple carriers, it is just >mind on this as well**). that the cost of Charles De Gaulle is such that a second carrier has been pushed a long way right on the procurement schedule. To arm a carrier with ASMs and area SAMs implies >that threats/targets will be inside of its aircraft strike range. This is I take it then you are discounting the value of organic, on the scene when >not a good situation for a high value unit. They would have been better >served just building surface combatants armed with such weaponry. you need it CAP?? The only >navies that should consider CVs are those which desire power projection This is just arrogance. Not everyone operates carriers in power >capability- and those countries should build clean carriers (i.e. all they >do is operate aircraft like US carriers or post-Sea Dart removal UK >carriers). projection roles. The Spanish Principe De Asturias and Italian Garibaldi class carriers are extremely well designed carriers that fulfill the roles for which they were designed, without breaking the national budget. The cost of the US style CTOL carrier is such that many nations gave away Not every nation can afford the US style answer to carrier operations. Some seek other answers such as VSTOL, others just reorient their Regards Unicorn É necessário Acessar antes de postar mensagens.
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