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West Coast Norfolk  
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1.  Brian Varine  
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 Mais opções 1 abr 1996, 05:00
Grupos de notícias: sci.military.naval
De: Brian Varine <vari...@ucs.orst.edu>
Data: 1996/04/01
Assunto: Re: West Coast Norfolk

On Sun, 31 Mar 1996, W.E. Nichols wrote:
> Louis Davis <LDa...@worldnet.att.net> Banged on the keyboard and wrote:

> +What is the west coast base that has about the same mission as the E.
> +coast Norfolk, NAS. I am looking for a place for Space A flights for
> +retirees going west.

> Actually, I think your best bet would be Jacksonville.  I think most of the
> C-9s operate out of here.  Any AF or Navy air terminal has flights.  Nas
> Norfolk is also a good start.

You may want to see if you could switch to an AF plane going to March or
any other base in So. Cal. Andrews AFB has LOTS of flights if you feel
like driving a bit. Don't forget Langley.

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2.  ocarlson  
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 Mais opções 2 abr 1996, 05:00
Grupos de notícias: sci.military.naval
De: ocarl...@mnsinc.com
Data: 1996/04/02
Assunto: Re: West Coast Norfolk
In <4jkn6n$...@mtinsc01-mgt.ops.worldnet.att.net>, Louis Davis <LDa...@worldnet.att.net> writes:
>What is the west coast base that has about the same mission as the E.
>coast Norfolk, NAS. I am looking for a place for Space A flights for
>retirees going west.
>Capt. USAR Rtd.

Travis AFB, near Fairfield (60 miles NE of San Francisco) is probably
the key Space-A going west.

O


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USN Ship Names  
1.  Cesare Vecchi  
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 Mais opções 1 abr 1996, 05:00
Grupos de notícias: sci.military.naval
De: Cesare Vecchi <vec...@gulliver.unian.it>
Data: 1996/04/01
Assunto: Re: USN Ship Names
[ KREBS 7K ]
Tentative answer (corrections welcomed, ***: help needed):
- AM 11 Condor and AM 12 Plover: builder Gas Engine & Power Co.,
Bird class, cancelled 4.12.18.
- AM 42 Goshawk: builder Todd (New York), Bird cl., cancelled
4.12.18
- AM 49 Raven and AM 50 Shrike: builder Baltimore D.D., Bird cl.,
cancelled 1919.
- AMc: all converted from commercial fishermen:
1-Pipit; 2-Magpie; 3-Plover; 4-***; 5-Kestrel (then IX-175);
6-Heath Hen; 7-Bunting (war loss); 8-Cockatoo; 9-Crossbill;
10-Longspur; 11-Sanderling; 12-Grouse; 13-Hornbill (war loss);
14-Condor; 15-Waxbill; 16-Chatterer; 17-Pintail; 18-Nightingale (I)
(then YP); 19-Grosbeak; 20-Crow (war loss); 21-Kildeer (then
IX-194); 22-Flamingo (then IX-180); 23-Blue Jay (then YDT);
24-Egret (then IX-181); 25-Canary (then YDT); 26-Humming Bird;
27-Frigate Bird; 28-Mockingbird; 29-Puffin; 30-Reedbird; 31-***;
32-Courser; 33-Firecrest; 34-Parrakeet; 35-Road Runner; 56-Kingbird
(then IX-176); 57-Phoebe; 58-Rhea; 59-Ruff; 60-***; 111-Agile (then
IX-203); 112-Affray; 149-Nightingale (II) (then IX-177).
Existed also 203-Mendrick and 204-Minah converted 1944 from PCSs.
- PG 23 Nantucket (2/18), ex Ranger (1876), ex Rockport (10/17),
then IX-18 (7/21), merc. Bay State (1940), Emery Rice.
- PG 24 Dolphin: ex despatch vessel, launched 12..4.84, then
Mexican Plan de Guadalupe (1922).
- PG 25 and PG 26: ***
- PG 27 Marblehead: ex unprotected cruiser n. 11, Montgomery cl.,
launched 11.8.1892, sold 8/21.
- PG 37 Callao, ex Spanish, 243 t., launched 6/1888, sold 9/23.
- PG 41 Samar, ex Spanish, 243 t., launched 1888, sold 1/21.
- PG 73-84: ***
- PY 1 to PY 5: converted yachts, acquisitions of 1898: 1-Mayflower
(then WPG 183); 2-Hawk (then IX-14); 3-Scorpion; 4-Vixen; 5-Sylph.
- PY 6 to 9 and 11: acquisitions of WWI: 6-Nokomis; 7-Aramis;
8-Despatch; 9-Niagara; 11-Wenonah.
- APA 181-186 no name reported.                                    
- AS 4 Alert (launched 1874, ex steam gunboat, sold 7/22)
- AS 7 Rainbow (ex Norseking)
- AS 8 Savannah (ex Saxonia)
- AS 9 Canopus (ex Santa Leonora)
- AR 2 ***
- AR 17 and AR 18 to Great Britain (Lend/lease), respectively
HMS Assistance and HMS Diligence (returned US Navy 1946). Sisters
of AR 19-21.
- ARL 25, 34: ***
- AGP 19: ***
- ARS 10, 18, 30, 31 and 37: ***
- AT 1-18; 77-80: ***
- AT, acquired 1898: 46-Iroquois; 47-Osceola; 48-Peoria;
49-Piscataqua; 50-Potomac; 51-Uncas.
- AT 52: Navajo, Navy built, launched 1907.
- AT, WWI acquisitions: 53-SP 467 (ex Delaware, then YT-111);
54-Conestoga; 55-Genesee; 56-Lykens; 57-Sea Rover; 58- Undaunted;
59-Challenge (then YT-126).
- AT 61 Cahokia (5/36, ex USCG, ex Bayside)
- AT 62 Tamaroa (5/36, ex USCG, ex Bartolme)
- AT 63 Acushnet (5/36, ex USCG CG.18)
- AO 7 Arethusa (ex Luciline): built 1893, acquisition of 1898,
3319 t., sold 7/27.
- AO 8 Sara Thompson: built 1888, acquired 17.9.18, 2691 t.,
sold 8/34.
- AO 10 Alameda: built 1919, acquired 17.10.19, 4410 t., sold
8/22; merc. Olean (1924); USN Sweep (IX 143) 1944-1946.
- AO 89 Pasig (ex J.C. Donnell): built 1917, acquired 1/43,
9783 t., returned 9/43.
- AO 90 Shikellamy (ex Daniel Pierce): built 1943, acquired 4/43,
4887 t., converted to AOG (AOG 47), returned 1/46.
- "Suez Crisis" Tankers - T2-SE-A1 Type:
T-AO 153 Cumberland (MC-1736);T-AO 154 Lynchburg (MC-1926);
T-AO 155 Roanoke (MC-1747); T-AO 156 Bull Run (MC-354);
T-AO 157 Paoli (MC-1770); T-AO 158 Abiqua (MC-548);
T-AO 159 French Creek (MC-1777); T-AO 160 Logan's Fort (MC-2431);
T-AO 161 Lone Jack (MC-1767); T-AO 162 Memphis (MC-1745);
T-AO 163 Parkersburg (MC-1731); T-AO 164 Petrolite (MC-1723).
All stricken 1957-1958. The MC numbers are Maritime Commission
hull numbers.
- AE 7: ***
- AF acquired 1898: 2-Celtic; 3-Culgoa; 4-Glacier; 5-Pompey.
- AF 6 Rappahannock, acquired 1917.
- AKS 16-19: ***
- AP 3 Hancock, 1879, ex US Army, acq. 1902, then IX 12.
- AP 36, 44, 45, 68: ***
- AP 48  and AP 49, C3-Si-A3 type, became respectively APA 89
Frederick Funston and APA 90 Jame's O'Hara.
- AK , WWI acquisitions: 1-Houston; 2-Kittery; 3-Newport News;
4-Bath; 5-Gulfport; 6-Beaufort; 7-Pensacola; 8-Astoria; 9-Long
Beach; 10-Quincy;
- AK 11, 32-40, 45, 50, 52, 57-62, 81, 268: ***
- AK 48 Pegasus (ex Lawrin), acquired 9.41, then IX 222 (5/45).
- AGS 6-14, converted from PCs and YMSs: 6-Derickson; 7-Littlehales;
8-Dutton; 9-Armistead Rust; 10-John Blish; 11-Chauvenet; 12-Harknes;
13-James M. Gillis; 14-Simon Newcomb.
- AGSc: ***
- AGOR 2: ***
- AH: 2-Solace (ex Creole, 1898, scrapped 1933); 3-Comfort (ex
Havana, 1917, merc. Havana 1925); 4-Mercy (ex Saratoga, 1917, sold
3/39).
- AG: 2-Lebanon (acq. 1898); 3-Nanshan (acq. 1898); 4-Saturn (acq.
1898); 5-General Alava; 6-7: ***; 8-Mahanna (acq. 29.9.20);
9-Columbia (ex Great Northern, acq. 3.8.21); 10-11 and 13-14: ***;
15-Ajax (ex Scindia, ex AC 14, built 1890); 22: ***; 25-Potomac
(ex USCG); 26-Cuyahoga (then USCG); 34-Alcor (then AR 10);
37-Manomet (ex Lake Geneva, 1918); 51-65: ***; 67-Antaeus (ex AS 21,
then AH 10 Rescue); 109-Zane (ex DMS 14); 125-Patoka (ex AO 9);
AG 129-145: ***:
- IX: 3-Briarcliff; 4-Cheyenne; 7-Commodore; 8-Cumberland; 10-Essex;
11-Gopher (ex Fern); 12-Hancock (ex AP 3); 18-Nantucket (ex PG 23);
19-Newport (ex PG 12); 26-Southery; 27-Sturgeon Bay; 31-Wolverine (ex
Michigan); 32-Yantic; 34: ***; 38: ***; 41-America; 43-Freedom;
47-Vamarie; 48-Highland Light; 49-Spindrift; 50-Bowdoin; 51-Sea Otter I;
52-Cheng Ho; 54-Galaxy; 57-Araner; 58-Dwyn Wen; 59-Volador; 60-Seaward
(I); 61-Geoanna; 62-Vileehi; 63-Zahma; 65-Blue Dolphin; 66-Migrant;
68-Seven Seas; 69-Puritan; 70-Gloria Dalton; 73-Zaca; 74-Metha Nelson;
75-John M. Howard; 76-Ramona; 77-Juniata; 78-Brave; 79-El Cano;
82-Luster; 83-Ashley; 84-Congaree; 85-Euhaw; 86-Pocotaligo; 88-Wimbee;
89-Romain; 90-Forbes; 91-Palomas; 92-Liston; 94-Ronaki; 95-Echo;
97-Martha's Vineyard; 100-Racer; 102-Majaba; 105-Panther; 106-Greyhound
(ex Yale); 111-Armadillo; 112-Beagle; 113-Camel; 114-Caribou; 115-Elk;
116-Gazelle; 117-Gemsbok; 118-Giraffe; 119-Ibex; 120-Jaguar;
121-Kangaroo; 122-Leopard; 123-Mink; 124-Moose; 125-Panda; 126-Porcupine;
127-Raccoon; 129-Whippet; 131-Abarenda; 132-Andrew Doria; 133-Antona;
134-Arayat; 135-Arethusa; 136-Carondelet; 137-Celtic; 138-Malvern:
139-Octorara; 140-Quiros; 141-Manileno; 142-Signal (ex Standard Arrow);
143-Silver Cloud (ex AO 10 Alameda); 144-Clyde; 145-Villalobos;
148-North Star; 149-Trefoil; 150-Quartz; 151-Silica; 152-Carmita;
153-Asphalt; 154-Bauxite; 158-Limestone; 159-Feldspar; 160-Marl;
161-Barite; 162-Lignite; 163-Cinnabar; 164-Corundum; 171-Albatross;
172-Bluebird; 173-Etamin; 175-Kestrel (ex AMc 5); 176-Kingbird (ex
AMc 56); 177-Nightingale (ex AMc 149); 178-Banshee; 179-Kenwood;
180-Flamingo (ex AMc 22); 181-Egret (ex AMc 24); 184-Clifton;
185-Stonewall; 186-Dawn; 187-Belusan; 188-Chotauk; 189-Marmora;
190-Nausett; 191-Vandalia; 192-Flambeau; 193-Meredosia; 194-Kildeer
(ex AMc 21); 196-Spark; 197-Mariveles; 198-Cohassett; 199-Barcelo;
200-Maratanza; 201-Sterling; 203-Agile (ex AMc 111); 209-Seaward (II);
210-Sea Foam; 212: IX-212 (unnamed); 213-Serapis; 214-Yucca; 217-Tackle;
218-Guardoqui; 219-220: ***; 221-Eureka; 222-Pegasus (ex AK 48);
224-Aide De Camp; 229: ***; 230-Tapacola; 231-Stalwart; 232-Summit;
301-303: ***.

Cesare Vecchi
Falconara (AN) - Italy
vec...@gulliver.unian.it


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german spies during WWII  
1.  ben debaan  
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 Mais opções 1 abr 1996, 05:00
Grupos de notícias: sci.military.naval
De: tomm...@ix.netcom.com(ben debaan )
Data: 1996/04/01
Assunto: Re: german spies during WWII
In <Mckellar-3103960952540...@slip-12-22.shore.net>

Mckel...@thealliance.com (McKellar) writes:

>In article <315D35C7.2...@jcs1.jcstate.edu>, Clas...@jcs1.jcstate.edu
wrote:

>"

>     "

>Do I need my decoder ring to read this?

>Mark

no - it was written in invisible ink!  how else do WWII german spies
communicate?

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RN Caps and Cap Talley- How to tie them  
1.  Bob  
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 Mais opções 1 abr 1996, 05:00
Grupos de notícias: sci.military.naval
De: Bob <ry...@gil.com.au>
Data: 1996/04/01
Assunto: Re: RN Caps and Cap Talley- How to tie them
Thats correct....flatten it with an iron, on warm temp., though you can put a cloth
over the tally bow to stop burning/melting. (it is only a precaution)

Bob
York......
http://www.gil.com.au/~ryork/rannet.html       Major update occurred on Friday
29/3/96.
             Brisbane...Queensland...Australia.....


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Ships Armor, Terminology Quest.  
1.  John Shinal  
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 Mais opções 1 abr 1996, 05:00
Grupos de notícias: sci.military.naval
De: jshi...@nando.net (John Shinal)
Data: 1996/04/01
Assunto: Re: Ships Armor, Terminology Quest.

I have a book, US Cruisers, which (I guess) extensively discusses
development of ships of this class. It uses a term throughout that I
cannot find a reference for.

        The term is : STS     Does anyone recognise this abbreviation ?

 It refers to armor on upperworks mostly, although there is reference
to STS being installed on barbettes. Amount of armor is usually listed
in pounds. As in 25 lb STS installed around the "X" area...

I guess it is "steel", but what is this acronym ? Super Tough Stuff ?
Special Tungsten Steel ? Simply Tin Slag ?

While I'm here, can anyone define "abaft" for me ? I can't figure out
if that's behind, beside, or just "over there" !

        Many TIAs,

        John S. Shinal
        jshi...@nando.net


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Deep Space Bombardment Force  
1.  William Baird  
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 Mais opções 1 abr 1996, 05:00
Grupos de notícias: sci.military.naval
Encaminhar para: sci.space.policy
De: wba...@nmsu.edu (William Baird)
Data: 1996/04/01
Assunto: Re: Deep Space Bombardment Force

In article <4jkgir$...@useneta1.news.prodigy.com> NKSW...@prodigy.com (Matthew Givens) writes:
>My personal opinion is that, although it may sound reasonable, the
>initial cost is prohibitive.  

It's not really reasonable either, to be honest.  If Nation X were to
build such a fleet, much money would be spent on countermeasures (they
have to pass thru LEO at some point...throw up a bunch of ball barrings
via an advanced SCUD... or watch for IR readings as they come
in...remember the whole sha-bang about moon missiles?).  Besides, if
Nation X were to build such a fleet it would also be obvious as well!  
Could you imagine the number of launches to build it???  it'd have to be
on orbit assembly (we lack HLLV's!) (which people could watch and
destroy!).  Invincible it is not; undetectable it is not.

Additionally the cost of building it now would be too great (at $5,000/lb
to LEO....).  Also, IIRC, we have signed treaties stating we will not
base weapons in space (nukes that is...).

>Personally, I think it was a mistake for this country to back out of the
>"space race".  As neat as the space shuttle is, it can't get us anywhere
>except in orbit around the planet, so it's not very good.  It's not even
>capable of landing on another planet and taking off again!  We should
>have concentrated on more efficient ways of reaching the moon (or
>wherever_), and focused on constructing orbital stations and lunar
>colonies.

Matt, the problem NOW is launch costs.  You cut them and everything
follows.  That's what the thrust of the DC-X, DC-XA, and X-33 programs
are currently.  Call and express your support to your congressman and
senators.  If you want someone to blame for the end of the space race,
blame the public; they lost interest.

 Will

>  Matthew in Montgomery

PS Follow-ups directed to a more appropriate group.

Will Baird      email:  wba...@nmsu.edu     http://essex.nmsu.edu/~scomputi/
Phantoms!  Whenever I think I fully understand mankind's purpose on earth...
suddenly I see phantoms dancing in the shadows...[saying] pointly as words,
"What you know is nothing little man; what you have to learn, immense." - CD


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2.  Ed Turner  
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 Mais opções 1 abr 1996, 05:00
Grupos de notícias: sci.military.naval, sci.military.aviation, alt.war, sci.space.tech
De: e...@Princeton.EDU (Ed Turner)
Data: 1996/04/01
Assunto: Re: Deep Space Bombardment Force

In article <4jm8mr$...@cronkite.seas.gwu.edu> w...@gwis2.circ.gwu.edu (Christopher Weeks) writes:
>    This is either an extremely interesting bit of history, or a
>completely lunatic idea.  Or both.

Both for sure!  The think tanks came up with a lot of scifi type ideas
(at taxpayer expense!) for the future of the space program in the 1950's
and 60's.  It is not too hard to make all sorts of "conceptual designs"
sound plausible as the original post in this thread illustrated, but 40
years of history should by now have taught us a some what more modest
vision (in light of practical technical and financial constraints).

As an aside, it may have made sense at the time the DSBF was conceived,
but it is very hard to imagine that one would want to used large *manned*
vessels as launching platforms with current or future technology.

Did you ever hear the one about blasting mountains into space with a drive
powered by small nuclear explosives?  It was seriously proposed and studied
too!


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3.  Henry Spencer  
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 Mais opções 2 abr 1996, 05:00
Grupos de notícias: sci.military.naval, sci.military.aviation, alt.war, sci.space.tech
De: Henry Spencer <he...@zoo.toronto.edu>
Data: 1996/04/02
Assunto: Re: Deep Space Bombardment Force

In article <4jeiit$...@news03.deltanet.com> Bruce Lewis <bc...@deltanet.com> writes:
>...If a submerged missile
>boat could be accurately located by a blue-
>green laser radar or an advanced synthetic
>aperture radar mounted on a satellite, it
>might be worthwhile to consider reviving
>the concept of the Deep Space Bombardment
>Force.

Disregarding the policy issues -- the lack of sophisticated opponents to
justify major new nuclear forces, and the treaty violations involved --
there are several technical difficulties here.

>Instead of deep water, however, the ships of the
>DSBF would rely on "deep space" to protect them
>from detection by an enemy power...

Unfortunately, space-surveillance technology has improved quite a bit
since the 1950s.  As Bruce noted, radar is pretty hopeless because of its
inverse-fourth-power range law (the inverse-square law gets you both
coming and going).  However, passive detection techniques such as optical
and infrared telescopes suffer much less from this.  The vessels Bruce is
proposing would be large, and should be relatively easy to detect --
particularly in the thermal infrared -- even if attempts are made to
render them stealthy.

Remember, you don't *have* to do a complete sky search.  It suffices to
track each ship continuously, starting when it leaves port.  With passive
tracking, this can be done without alerting the ship.

>A DSBF "boomer"
>might consist of an Orion-type nuclear pulse
>vehicle with long-duration nuclear-electric "cruise"
>engines added. The "boomer" would depart orbit
>with a high velocity using the nuclear pulse system...

Here we have another problem:  use of nuclear-pulse engines anywhere in
Earth's vicinity will be devastating to current satellite populations,
which are not hardened against the effects.  Even limiting nuclear-pulse
operations to very high orbit, outside the magnetosphere, is not a
complete fix, because the X-rays from the bombs will kick up energetic
electrons from (and within) any solid surface they hit.

As a practical note, also, nuclear-pulse engines are extremely expensive
to run.  (The Orion people assumed that fission-free bombs would become
available in the 1960s, but they didn't.)

>...but once the ion drive was switched
>on and used to modify the ship's orbit unpredictably,
>the ability of an enemy to predict its trajectory in
>space would be close to nil...

The basic idea is sound -- using a low-thrust drive to make unpredictable
orbit modifications -- but note that large nuclear-powered ion drives are
not going to be inconspicuous objects.  The reactor itself is a copious
source of gamma rays, and conversion of its heat to electric power is an
inefficient process, producing large amounts of waste heat which have to
be radiated away.

The instruments on the Solar Max satellite -- which wasn't even designed
for gamma-ray astronomy! -- detected the USSR's Topaz experimental
satellite reactors quite well at quite substantial distances.  In fact,
the Topaz tests interfered quite noticeably with Solar Max's observations
of the Sun.

These particular problems can be circumvented somewhat by operating the
ion drive only intermittently, and by trying to point the emissions in
harmless directions.

>A radar capable of searching the entire volume
>of cislunar space to find such ships would have to
>be located on the moon or on orbit=8Band would, of
>course, be the first target for an attack in the
>event of war.

Surely the same criticism can be levelled at satellite systems capable of
finding missile submarines.  If space-based tracking systems are not a
threat to the DSBF, they are not a threat to the missile subs either.

Actually, I think the argument is fundamentally flawed, simultaneously in
opposite directions. :-)  First, I don't think even large space-based
radars are going to be able to fight the inverse-fourth-power law well
enough to be useful.  However, second, the most important point of
tracking DSBF ships is not to be able to find and destroy them during a
protracted war, but to be able to track them during peacetime, so that
attack forces can be positioned quietly and secretly to destroy them at
the very start of the war.  It's not necessary that such attack forces
be large vessels or that they trail the DSBF ships around, because the
bad guys don't need to be able to destroy the DSBF ships on a moment's
notice -- it suffices to be able to destroy them at a pre-planned time.

"Gosh, what a shame, all your DSBF ships were destroyed simultaneously
by meteorite impacts.  What an amazing coincidence that this happened
just as we invaded West Germany.  Of course, we had nothing to do with
it, and there's no cause to get hasty with your other nukes.  You'll
notice that *we* haven't used any nuclear weapons."

In any case, this is all a bit silly.  The same effect as DSBF can be had,
at vastly lower cost, with well-hidden missile bases on the Moon.  The
Moon is too large to search effectively, it provides ample background
clutter to hide low-powered bases, and lunar bases can be hardened against
attack much more easily.

(Of course, it's still a very expensive project that violates assorted
treaties and is impossible to justify since peace has broken out.)

Frankly, I would suspect any 1950s/1960s DSBF schemes of having been
attempts to justify military manned spaceflight, and possibly to justify
Orion in particular.  This strikes me as a clear case of starting with a
solution and working backwards to find a problem for it to solve, without
considering whether there are better ways to solve that problem.
--
Americans proved to be more bureaucratic           |       Henry Spencer
than I ever thought.  --Valery Ryumin, RKK Energia |   he...@zoo.toronto.edu


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4.  MichaelYeager  
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 Mais opções 2 abr 1996, 05:00
Grupos de notícias: sci.military.naval, sci.military.aviation, alt.war, sci.space.tech
De: MichaelYeager <yeage...@ns2.scsn.net>
Data: 1996/04/02
Assunto: Re: Deep Space Bombardment Force
The cheapest solution, of course, is the one already in place overhead.  
Ever wonder why 'dense pack' was of such interest to the ICBM crowd?  
Ever question why fractracide was counted on to protect ICBM silos?  Ever
wonder why the silos would *need* to count on fractracide to protect
their contents when they should be empty?  

What ever became of 'Brilliant Eyes' anyway?


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